The Interview: Part Two

SS: Cool, sounds like Mumbai was quite exciting. Where else did you go??

Kathryn: After six days in Mumbai, we went to a city called Ahmedabad in Gujarat, we spent ten days there. It is a very non-touristy city; it is actually known for its textiles—eye opening, colourful, breath-taking, alluring textiles. I am not a shopper and I got roped into buying scarves, shirts, dresses, and fabrics just because their colours were so captivating. Although Ahmedabad isn’t aesthetically the most beautiful city, it has a very pleasant atmosphere since there aren’t very many tourists. I was reading the description of Gujarat in the lonely planet book and it mentions how tourists will be able to have ‘genuine’ conversations with locals since they are not used to the presense of foreigners; I found this to be true.  Even vendors in the market offered us seats and were not frazzled when we chose not to buy anything. They were just happy we chose to visit their stalls. As I walked through the market, I felt comfortable looking and didn’t feel the same pressure to buy something that I did later while looking in shops in regions like Goa and Kerala.

Catriona: Ya, looking back on our trip I would have to say that Ahmedabad was the highlight. We went there to visit various NGOs and I found it to be pretty fulfilling. Two of the NGOs that I found really inspiring were Utthan and MARAG. Utthan works with people on the margins of society; women, religious minorities and the poor. They work on promoting gender equality and equity, human rights, and improving the quality of life. Similar to MARAG, which is an organization that mainly works with the Maldharis (animal rearing communities who have lost their land), they believe that the greatest resource for development is the strength of the community. Helping is not about going into a community telling them how to solve their problems, it is about teaching people their rights to education and freedom and letting them develop their own solutions, their own “communication plan”– something that will help them for years to come. It was very eye opening listening to the stories about marginalized communities and all the land rights issues going on; it was actually pretty embarrassing realizing the similarities between India's marginalized communities and Canada's First Nations. The people at Utthan were shocked to hear that  a country such as Canada still has this going on.  Overall, both NGOs taught me that it is not about going in with a solution and thinking you can solve a problem; it is all about listening to the people. I found this very useful, and I am hoping to use this knowledge is my career.

Kathryn: We also spent about 10 days in Goa, a world famous beach town, where Europeans and hippies have flocked to since the 70’s. It was strange seeing the contrast between Ahmedabad and Goa. At first, I was discouraged by the overly touristy appearance of Goa. Goa has a beach (called Baga Beach) like those you see in places like Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, where tourists cover the beach, and people haggle the tourists in an attempt to sell souless activities such as parasailing and windsurfing. After a few days, I got to see a better side of Goa by walking around in the less touristy beach areas and experiencing the little villages surrounding the area. Goa is beautifully tropical. It is covered in rice paddies; the picture of women picking through the rice along the side of the highway will always stay in my mind.  If you spend too much time on the touristy beach (Baga Beach) you might start to question whether or not you are in India? However, the weird/trippy/creepy tourism in Goa was fitting since our MA class was studying the ways that tourism has impacted Goan culture. Besides the disgusting evidence of tourism on the beaches, I personally thought the beaches weren’t so bad in Goa; however, my princess of a roommate disagrees. She almost appeared to give up on India and (maybe) on life when she came to the realization that the ocean water was brown. I love you, Catriona....

Catriona: Ok, all I have to say about that, is never trust lonely planet and in fact, never trust friends that have previously gone to Goa and are inclined to partake in the ganja (people seem to see things a bit different in a cloud of smoke). I guess while we were in Mumbai and Ahmedabad, the heat was really getting to me, and some Canadians back home had informed me via email that sitting on the beach in Goa was like being in the Caribbean. Not so, my friend. It looked to me like a flooded garbage dump and it smelled like that fish fertilizer you put in your garden. BUT, in the long run this was a blessing in disguise. I came to terms that I would not be frolicking on the beach and ended up discovering so many other great things about Goa; the people, the food, the markets, and so on. If the beaches were amazing, I probably would have sat on my butt, drank beer and would have come home fat and sun burnt.  


Kathryn: Catriona is insane.

SS: You covered lots of ground. You must have gotten to know the culture pretty well. Did you notice lots of differences between Canada and India?

Catriona: Some things that really stuck out to me at first were differences like lack of cues, no consideration of time, and “ladies first” being a foreign concept. At first I found most of this rude and abrasive, but after experiencing it over and over and thinking about it, I realized I was completely wrong. When you live in a place with basically an endless population, there is no sense in the concept of cues and unlike Canada, it is not the loudest and pushiest person that gets in front - everyone is loud and pushy. I really have not figured it out yet, but it just seems to work. Same with ladies first, many times I was tripped and elbowed by old men trying to get in front of me.  I remember the first couple of times it happened I said “excuse me” and gave an icy glare that would have Canadian men trembling in their boots, but these men would just look at me wondering what I wanted, not even comprehending what the issue was. It is not that they are rude though; I found Indians to be some of the most helpful, patient, and compassionate people. They never want to displease you; even if they have no idea what you are talking about or what you just asked for, they will say yes and give you a big smile- they are not fazed by the awkward silence that continues while you wait and wonder if they understood you.  The concept of time is very different in India. India has taught me patience. 

Kathryn: The anti-line up sentiment in India taught me to be a little more aggressive. I am super Canadian (tooooo polite..) At first, I was way too passive and even the smallest Indian woman was able to budge in front of me. Near the end of the trip, I was holding my own and not letting people get in front of me. I figure when people come to Canada they need to learn our customs and ways of being polite. Same goes in India; I was rolling with the culture and keeping safe amongst the crazy chaos. India helped me step outside myself for 5 weeks.

SS: What about the food? Was it as good as everyone says?

Kathryn: At first, I thought I would be losing some weight on the trip. For the first few days in Mumbai, everything that I ate made me want to puke all over Catriona. There was one day where I ate a bag of chips and a yogurt lassi just so that people were not suspecting that I had become an anorexic. The truth was I just didn’t want to eat.  I would like to emphasize how much that has changed. I feel like I can relate to Elizabeth Gilbert’s book ‘Eat Pray Love’ where she went to Italy to drown herself in the culture of food. Although my trip to India served several purposes, the food became my addiction.  My addiction started on my last night in Mumbai. We went to a vegetarian restaurant and I ordered a paneer dish (the Indian cheese in a curry sauce) with buttery naan bread. I nearly lost it, eating each bite, the flavours were vibrant and enriched with butter. I had a food revelation: Indian food is even more delicious than I had previously thought. Everyday at the Lemon Tree hotel in Ahmedabad, I woke up looking forward to a new day of curry, naan bread, yogurt lassies, and masala chai (or what we call Chai tea in Canada; it actually just means 'tea' in Hindi.) Every day was a new food adventure. I also discovered that I could become a vegetarian if I lived in India. In Canada, I find vegan/vegetarian food subpar and nothing like our carnivorous options. In India, the flavours are so rich and wonderful, I didn’t even notice that the meat was gone.

Catriona: I was so excited when I found out our residency was going to be in India because I am always thinking with my stomach and I LOVE curry. I envisioned three weeks of endless plates of curries and chutneys with me coming in and out of food comas. Our first few days there were definitely not that. I tried a curry the second day and the spices and texture were not at all what I was used to. After that, I began to think that my love of "curry", was just that, "curry" - what the British have made, not what people eat in India. This whole time have I been in love with the equivalent of American Chinese food vs. real Chinese food? Was the Indian cuisine I eat back home, really not Indian at all? I was coming to the realization that I was not going to be coming home 20 pounds heavier with the smell of butter chicken on my breath. After about a week though, I realized that it was just food in general that I was turned off by. It took my system about two weeks to get over the culture shock and after that I was in curry heaven.

Kathryn: I made a mistake while I was in Kerala. I had really enjoyed the seafood and occasional butter chicken dish in Goa, but when we got to Kerala we reached a place called Alapee and we were instructed by the hostel owner to go to this guest house for lunch. We took a rickshaw to the guest house with very ravenous bellies. When we arrived, the man brought us out a spicy beef curry dish. My heart began to beat a little faster. I had a mantra my whole time in India that I would not eat beef considering the whole ‘sacred cow’ thing in India; I thought it would be bad luck. Being the polite (probably overly-polite person) that I am, I decided to eat it. The flavours were good, but chewing the meat piece by piece seemed wrong. I paid for it. I rode in a car for 6 hours with a crazy fever, feeling so weak and cold in 30 degree heat; I wrapped myself in my friend’s sweat shirt and dozed on and off in my daze and confusion.  Then the next day, I spent a lot of time in the bathroom. I felt a lot better after taking some emergency antibiotic pills that my doctor had prescribed. Catriona, being the stubborn person that she is, refused to eat the beef curry and she ended up being totally fine. Im glad she didn’t eat it though because she would have been way worse off than I. She is a delicate flower, as we know…. (Giggle)

SS: Hmmm, you’ve scared me a little about eating Indian food now…

Catriona: No, no. It just takes awhile for your body to get used to it. Indian food is really good for you. All the spices that are used in curries have medicinal benefits. A few of us took a cooking class in Goa and learnt all about why certain spices are used and why they are used more in different parts of the country.  For example, turmeric is a natural anti-biotic, cinnamon is used for colds and diahreah, peppers for arthritis and constipation, cumin for cancer, and on and on. A couple of days after the cooking class we went to a spice farm, and I loaded up on all the spices and essential oils. Here I have some lavender in my purse, you should put some on. .... I mean, would you like to try some?

Kathryn pretends to yawn, concealing her mouth to hide her grin.

SS: I thought you were not supposed to put pure essential oil on your skin?

Catriona: Ah, whatever, it feels more like a tingle than a burn.

Catriona gets up, leans over the table, turns the bottle over and dispenses about twenty drops of oil on his hands and jacket, she then continues to distribute the rest of the bottle onto his head.

SS: Ouch! This shit is burning my face off.

Catriona: Oops, sorry about that, I guess I got a bit carried away. You should be happy though, that is the stuff-pure untainted lavender oil.

Kathryn glances over and sees the look of achievement on Catriona’s face.

SS: I guess…

SS does not look pleased.

SS: So did you find Indian people a lot different than westerners?

Kathryn: The thing that I observed most about Indian people is that they are very kind in general. I remember my mom saying to me that the people of India have ‘open hearts’. She is a yoga teacher so I imagine her training and knowledge of the practice has led her to meet many people from this culture. Im extremely impressed with the people there. Usually when I travel, there are several ‘dead panned’ people who do not seem happy that you have arrived in their country. For the most part in India—the people are so polite and offer a nice smile. I did not come across any mean people. This was especially apparent when I went off to observe the work done by Marag, a NGO in Ahmedabad, that works to empower marginalized people (the Maldhari people of India.) Mona, Marag’s representative, drove about eight of us to the villages where the Maldhari people live. We got to visit with the people and were offered masala chai everywhere we went. Mona set up dinner/lunch/breakfast and answered each one of our questions cheerfully. Being Canadian, a few people had a hard time accepting that her hospitality was genuine and a part of the Indian way. I learned quite quickly that you must accept the Indian hospitality (fully give into it!) and not question it. Whether they feel you are overstaying your welcome or not is beyond our control; the Indian people that I met were much to polite to tell you if you were. Be kind and give in! I think Catriona would agree….

Catriona: Yes, very generous and kind hearted. I was also very impressed by how much everyone knows in regards to the politics, history, and just basic general knowledge about what is going on in the country. Everyone seems to be highly involved and passionate. I remember a few of us over heard some kids, that could not have been older than 10, talking about an election coming up and what the different parties were claiming they would do. We felt pretty embarrassed, and agreed that knowing who our prime minister was is the extent of our political knowledge.

Kathryn: Another side of Indian people is the ‘business side’ which I think is over-emphasized as a stereotype in Canadian culture. People always talk about how Indian people are only interested in getting to know foreigners if there is a ‘sale’ involved. I believe that this is true to an extent in places like Goa and Kerala where travelers are necessities for putting food on the table. One thing that became apparent was that business wasn’t personal (for the most part.) After a ‘good haggle’(or bartering the price of an item) between foreigner and Goan or Keralan, the conversation would turn into a genuine interest in the country that we were from or the sights we had seen in India; no matter what price had been decided in the end. Of course, there are some shrewd taxi drivers who continually ask you about the days to come—can they drive you to your next destination? The airport? Does your aunt’s sister want to come to India to shop at his uncle’s store? It would be wrong to deny that 'the sales man mentality' isn’t strong in India, but it would also be wrong to deny the kind, soft, and comforting personalities of the people that we met over a one month period.

Catriona: The Indian people were great—it was more the group dynamics of spending 24/7 with 30 people from our program. It felt overwhelming at times. I like to spend a lot of time alone and sometimes it just felt exhausting having to eat breakfast and dinner with 30 people. You feel obligated to make conversation and sometimes I just felt like eating and staring out the window. It was hard to reflect on our experiences or even think when people were always around.

SS:  Wow, you were with 30 people! That must have been rough! Sometimes travelling with one other person can be a challenge. What was that like?

Kathryn:  Hah, by far the most challenging thing about my time in India was spending it with 30 people. I felt I had to be patient and not judge people for not being flexible, patient, and kind when things were not going as planned. I also had to acknowledge that my past experiences living with a family in Nicaragua has increased my abilities to be patient; therefore, I needed to be compassionate towards people who were not experienced with travel in countries outside their comfort zones. Even Catriona was a bit of a handful sometimes with her germiphobia coming out in full force; she sometime talked about the cleanliness of the hotel sheets a little too much….

Catriona: I know. I did feel bad for Kathryn. I am a serious germaphobe and I had the insane idea that going to India would help me get over some of that. Not the case.... I would be lying if I said I did not spend most nights cocooned in a sheet I had brought from home.

Kathryn: It was nice after three weeks to break off from the group of 30 and spend it with only five people. We jumped on a plane to Kerala and rented a houseboat on the backwaters. This was some serious mind relaxing. Although, we did have a girl from Germany come on our boat, and we all found it hard to make friends with her; it just seemed like a lot of work after talking to 30 people for three weeks. We pretty much left her out. I still feel bad about that.

SS: What did you learn about each other??

Kathryn: It’s actually amazing how well we got along. I raised an eyebrow here and there when she whined about potential rats being close by; I had to remind her that we were in India a few times….. She had to remind me to stop being so nice and concerned when I didn’t feel like taking part in social activities. We were a good balance. Catriona is already putting me in charge of planning her wedding. I don’t know how I feel about this. But, seriously, I think we’re going to be friends for a long time.

Catriona: Totally agree. I think we both learned a lot from each other during the five weeks. I come from a large family, so I think I may be a bit unsympathetic and selfish at times (if I did not plow my brother and sisters over on the way to the dinner table all the food would be gone).  Anyway, at first I found Kathryn’s passive nature to be a bit maddening. She always feels like she is putting people out of their way by asking for services. I kept saying that it is not putting them out of their way, and if it is, bummer, that is their job. I do not think I am harsh, I worked in the service industry for years and getting stuff for people is the job. I think Kathryn had a bit of 'foreigners guilt' at the beginning, but after five weeks with me, she became a serious slave driver! Ha,  totally joking!! No, I think she became a bit more relaxed about asking for stuff, and I think I became a bit more compassionate and considerate because of her.

SS: Im going to go to India to worship the gods. I heard it's a really good way to find your inner spiritual voice. Everyone says India will change you. Do you think it did?

Catriona and Kathryn giggle a little bit.

Kathryn: I remember on the plane saying to Catriona that I hadn’t changed. But, I would say that yes, I have… I have noticed it these last few days of being home. I feel different in a subtle way; I feel refreshed and ready to take on life, work, friends, and school work; it all seems more doable than before. Im not spiritually uplifted in a way that people might think—‘I didn’t find myself’ by sitting in a temple for hours or doing hours of yoga; I already knew who I was years ago, India just helped to revive my life a little. I remember why I took Anthropology as my undergraduate degree; learning about culture inspires me in so many ways. I love seeing how other people live. Although I am happy to be home, I feel a slight pause of nostalgia looking back on the photos, the memories, and thinking of the funny situations that happened throughout the trip. I also made some pretty amazing friends.

Catriona: Ya, everyone said that India would “change me”. I do not feel like I have drastically changed, but I do feel that I have become more relaxed and more able to "go with the flow". India taught me to never have any expectations, because nothing it ever what it seems. If you constantly have expectations and think you know exactly what something is going to be like, you are always going to be let down and may never see the positives in what is actually going on around you. Some examples are the beaches in Goa, or even the cooking class we went to. I thought we were going to be going into a industrial kitchen and cooking up 50 dishes, but it was in a women's home and the kitchen was the size of a closet. I was really disappointed at first, but I told myself I was not going to pout and ended up having an awesome conversation with her parents and sister about growing up in Goa (I think the cook made her family stay in the bedroom, but the Dad kept on peeking out). So the experience ended up not being what I thought it was going to be, but it was just as great. As well, going to India made me appreciate what I have in Canada a lot more.  I used to take for granted getting up in the morning and going for a walk in the fresh air; now I wake up every morning and breathe in the air with a big smile on my face. I appreciate  and savour my morning coffee like it is the last cup on earth. I go outside, and compared to India, the  traffic on my road sounds like love birds singing songs to one another. 

SS: Oh okay, well I better go, I think that the new episode of Glee starts in 20 minutes.

SS gets up and walks out the door.

Catriona and Kathryn were relieved to be done the informal yet tiring interview. They removed their scarves from their faces and went outside into the cool, rainy, westcoast air. They were definitely home.